<div>So, then. How many compilers/platforms would you say it is reasonable to support? Is there a limit?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>My point is that there is a practical limit to the number of compilers/platforms that a human developer can be reasonably expected to deal with.... We have already passed that limit and should do *something* to solve the problem that we currently have: people commit stuff that works fine for them and then mysteriously (to the committer) does not work on other compilers/platforms. Nor is there anybody available to ask for help on a timely basis.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If you have another solution to the problem, I'm all ears. I, personally, am sick of seeing the red on the dashboard because less than 5% of VTK developers understand the limitations of VS 6..... Dropping VS 6 seems like the most painless way to solve the problem to me.</div>
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<div> </div>
<div>David</div>
<div><br> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Bill Lorensen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bill.lorensen@gmail.com">bill.lorensen@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Wow,<br><br>Now it's 6,7, and 7.1. David, what other compilers don't you use? With<br>ITK, we've had problems with Intel's ICC and SUN's CC. And the MAC<br>
had been troublesome. Borland also.<br><br>It would be really easy for us developers we could agree on a one compiler.<br><br>We're getting anyway are we...<br><font color="#888888"><br>Bill<br></font>
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<div></div>
<div class="h5"><br>On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:54 PM, David Cole <<a href="mailto:david.cole@kitware.com">david.cole@kitware.com</a>> wrote:<br>> "Cost in dollars and manpower" is indeed exactly the point. Supporting "all<br>
> compilers for all time" is a completely unrealistic goal for any project,<br>> yet it is sort of implied just by the way discussions take place on these<br>> lists and the platforms that "appear" to be officially supported because<br>
> they are represented on the nightly dashboards.<br>><br>> We cannot keep adding support for new compilers and build systems as they<br>> come into existence without dropping older compiler support along the way.<br>
> People have a limited capacity for remembering what code works on what<br>> compilers and what versions of STL support what methods.<br>><br>> In my opinion, this holds true for VTK/CMake/ParaView and ITK.... all<br>
> projects, actually.<br>><br>> The burden of support for these older systems should fall to the people who<br>> insist on using them..... yet, it does not. It falls on those of us who<br>> actually care about the state of the dashboard ... and unfairly so.<br>
><br>> My vote would be to say "VTK 5.4 supports back to Visual Studio 6." -- but<br>> for CVS VTK and moving forward, please, please, please, use at least Visual<br>> Studio 8 or 9. Let's drop 6, 7 and 7.1 support and prepare for Visual Studio<br>
> 10...<br>><br>> (Sure to fan the flames, I know.... sorry in advance.)<br>><br>> David Cole<br>><br>><br>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 12:24 PM, Scott, W Alan <<a href="mailto:wascott@sandia.gov">wascott@sandia.gov</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>>> I'm confused.<br>>> Customers would use the pre-compiled binary, wouldn't they?<br>>> Anyone that wants to compile ParaView is almost by definition a developer.<br>>><br>>> Just my own opinion - there is also the issue of cost in dollars and<br>
>> manpower. If I had my way, we would be spending our limited resources<br>>> cleaning up ParaView for the 3.6 release, working on multi-thread/<br>>> multi-core support, informatics, etc. If someone does want VS 6.0 support<br>
>> (or any other support for a 10 year old compiler), maybe either they should<br>>> pay for it or do it themselves?<br>>><br>>> I would vote to get rid of any compilers that are no longer supported.<br>
>><br>>> Alan<br>>><br>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>> From: <a href="mailto:vtk-developers-bounces@vtk.org">vtk-developers-bounces@vtk.org</a><br>>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:vtk-developers-bounces@vtk.org">vtk-developers-bounces@vtk.org</a>] On Behalf Of Bill Lorensen<br>
>> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 1:16 PM<br>>> To: Pebay, Philippe P<br>>> Cc: VTK Developers; VTK Users; Thompson, David C; Berk Geveci<br>>> Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] [vtkusers] Can we drop Visual Studio 6<br>
>> support?<br>>><br>>> I understand your view as a developer. But, this is hard to justify to a<br>>> customer.<br>>><br>>> Bill<br>>><br>>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Pebay, Philippe P <<a href="mailto:pppebay@sandia.gov">pppebay@sandia.gov</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>>> > I think there is a more fundamental reason why we should drop VS 6.0<br>>> > support. Being 10 years old, this compiler lacks C++ features which<br>>> > developers may want to (and do) use. As a result, we have to write more<br>
>> > complicated or less efficient code. This is not good.<br>>> ><br>>> > P<br>>> > --<br>>> > Philippe Pébay<br>>> > Sandia National Laboratories<br>>> ><br>
>> > ________________________________________<br>>> > From: <a href="mailto:vtk-developers-bounces@vtk.org">vtk-developers-bounces@vtk.org</a> [<a href="mailto:vtk-developers-bounces@vtk.org">vtk-developers-bounces@vtk.org</a>]<br>
>> > On Behalf Of Bill Lorensen [<a href="mailto:bill.lorensen@gmail.com">bill.lorensen@gmail.com</a>]<br>>> > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:35 AM<br>>> > To: Thompson, David C<br>>> > Cc: VTK Developers; VTK Users; Berk Geveci<br>
>> > Subject: Re: [vtk-developers] [vtkusers] Can we drop Visual Studio 6<br>>> > support?<br>>> ><br>>> > With ITK, if we have a VS6 or Borland or mingw or cygwin or VS7 or SUN<br>>> > CC or 64 bit ICC or ... problem, we ask someone that has the compiler<br>
>> > to investigate a fix. Some errors are hard to fix without access to a<br>>> > compiler.<br>>> ><br>>> > If you are still having a problem, I have a VS6 compiler and can try<br>>> > to track it down for you.<br>
>> ><br>>> > Bill<br>>> ><br>>> > On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 2:19 PM, David Thompson <<a href="mailto:dcthomp@sandia.gov">dcthomp@sandia.gov</a>><br>>> > wrote:<br>>> >>> What sort of maintenance issues are you having?<br>
>> >> This type:<br>>> >> <a href="http://public.kitware.com/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/Common/vtkUnicodeString" target="_blank">http://public.kitware.com/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/Common/vtkUnicodeString</a><br>
>> >> .cxx?view=log There are *many* more examples (perhaps not all as<br>>> >> humorously narrated), but the general problem is that the dashboard<br>>> >> machines are the only way for many developers to test whether<br>
>> >> something will work with MSVC6. It can be quite irritating to check<br>>> >> in something that should fix a compile problem and have to wait 1-2<br>>> >> hours before seeing the result.<br>
>> >><br>>> >>> I think the real issue is what compilers do the VTK installed base<br>>> >>> use? You may have customers that are using 3rd party<br>>> >>> drivers/libraries that are VS6. Actually, there is no way to know who<br>
>> >>> the customers are.<br>>> >> It would be nice to assume that customers who continue to develop<br>>> >> with VTK read at least the digest, but I agree that some may note and<br>
>> >> it could be some time before we hear from them. I still think it is a<br>>> >> good idea to drop VC6 not because it's irritating to debug build<br>>> >> problems but because it can lead to obfuscated code as people rewrite<br>
>> >> bits here and there to accommodate old syntax and broken STL<br>>> >> implementations.<br>>> >><br>>> >> David<br>>> >><br>>> >>> On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Berk Geveci <<a href="mailto:berk.geveci@kitware.com">berk.geveci@kitware.com</a>><br>
>> >>> wrote:<br>>> >>> > Hi folks,<br>>> >>> ><br>>> >>> > We are thinking of dropping support for Visual Studio 6. It is<br>>> >>> > causing annoying maintenance issues since no one in the developer<br>
>> >>> > team uses it and since VS 6 supports only a subset of modern C++<br>>> >>> > features. Are there any objects? If yes, I would like to know why.<br>>> >>> ><br>
>> >>> > Best,<br>>> >>> > -berk<br>>> >>> > _______________________________________________<br>>> >>> > Powered by <a href="http://www.kitware.com/" target="_blank">www.kitware.com</a><br>
>> >>> ><br>>> >>> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at<br>>> >>> > <a href="http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html" target="_blank">http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html</a><br>
>> >>> ><br>>> >>> > Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:<br>>> >>> > <a href="http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ" target="_blank">http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ</a><br>
>> >>> ><br>>> >>> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:<br>>> >>> > <a href="http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers" target="_blank">http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers</a><br>
>> >>> ><br>>> >>> _______________________________________________<br>>> >>> Powered by <a href="http://www.kitware.com/" target="_blank">www.kitware.com</a><br>>> >>><br>
>> >>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at<br>>> >>> <a href="http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html" target="_blank">http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html</a><br>
>> >>><br>>> >>> Please keep messages on-topic and check the VTK FAQ at:<br>>> >>> <a href="http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ" target="_blank">http://www.vtk.org/Wiki/VTK_FAQ</a><br>
>> >>><br>>> >>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:<br>>> >>> <a href="http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers" target="_blank">http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtkusers</a><br>
>> >>><br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> >><br>>> > _______________________________________________<br>>> > Powered by <a href="http://www.kitware.com/" target="_blank">www.kitware.com</a><br>
>> ><br>>> > Visit other Kitware open-source projects at<br>>> > <a href="http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html" target="_blank">http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html</a><br>
>> ><br>>> > Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:<br>>> > <a href="http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers" target="_blank">http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers</a><br>
>> ><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> ><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Powered by <a href="http://www.kitware.com/" target="_blank">www.kitware.com</a><br>
>><br>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at<br>>> <a href="http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html" target="_blank">http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html</a><br>>><br>
>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:<br>>> <a href="http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers" target="_blank">http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers</a><br>>><br>>><br>
>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Powered by <a href="http://www.kitware.com/" target="_blank">www.kitware.com</a><br>>><br>>> Visit other Kitware open-source projects at<br>
>> <a href="http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html" target="_blank">http://www.kitware.com/opensource/opensource.html</a><br>>><br>>> Follow this link to subscribe/unsubscribe:<br>>> <a href="http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers" target="_blank">http://www.vtk.org/mailman/listinfo/vtk-developers</a><br>
>><br>><br>><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>